| Poster |
Message |
 madis
|
 Headerite ehitamine
Aeg ajalt on juttu olnud. Kas on ka tulemusi ? Suudab mõni summutimeister Eestis pildi järgi (kahjuks mitte joonis) loominguliselt läheneda ja long headerid valmis väänata ? |
| 15.05.2002 at 12:37 |
|
ervin
|
Headerite ehitamine
quote:
madis: Aeg ajalt on juttu olnud. Kas on ka tulemusi ? Suudab mõni summutimeister Eestis pildi järgi (kahjuks mitte joonis) loominguliselt läheneda ja long headerid valmis väänata ?
pildi järgi on suhteliselt keeruline midagi valmis teha, lihtsam on sobitada. Lepi Ply-ga kokku, ehk saad pilgu peale visata minu ex-pontiacile -- sinna sai käsitööna ebasobivatest headeritest (ehk siis põhimõtteliselt from scratch) uued headerid meisterdatud. Ajakulu oli ca. 16 tundi. |
| 15.05.2002 at 12:51 |
|
jyrki
|
Headerite ehitamine
If there are ready headers available for your car, buy them. There is no way someone could twist the pipes correctly by looking at a picture, or even trying to duplicate them using existing headers as a model. Headers are made from mandrel bent pipes, which means that the turns are round. If you just bend a pipe with regular tools the pipe will flatten somewhat at the turn. The best way to build headers is to start from scratch. I have made the flanges out of 8 mm steel flat; the thicker the flange, the better they seal. Then I have bought enough 180 degree mandrel bends and some straight pipe. After that I have used four proper length flexible paper hose attached to the flange bolted to the head and welded together a stack of pipes to find a proper place for the collector and to figure the routing to the pipes. After that, starting with the pipe that looks the most difficult cut the bends and straights as needed, and tack weld them together until you reach the "collector". Then the next pipe and so on after all are done. Keep in mind, that you have to be able to remove the header as whole or make some joints in to it for the disassembly. Then, fully weld each pipe and fit again, tack weld them in to the flange again, remove and fully weld the pipes to the flange. Next, weld up the space between each pipe at the collector end, roll a "collector" out of sheet metal, tack weld it in to place, remove the header and fully weld the collector and you are done. Easy, isn't it! |
| 15.05.2002 at 13:16 |
|
jaanus
 |
Headerite ehitamine
Sama küsimus siin. Kohe väga oleks vaja torukollektoreid. Kahjuks pakutakse neid valmiskujul vaid kahe mitte üsna tuntud firma poolt ning nende saadavusega on tõsiseid probleeme. Ning pealegi on pakutavad valmistooted shorty'd.
Olen saatnud paar kirja ka soome, Marteliusele, kuid sealt ei ole vastuseks ei kippu ega kõppu.
Ehk siis - kui keegi teab kedagi, kes võiks kollektorid valmis väänata, andku aga teada. |
| 15.05.2002 at 14:09 |
|
rustang
 Moderator |
Headerite ehitamine
Jyrki: What kind of pipe you use (DOM or welded, wall thickness)? What type of welding you use, is MIG OK? Did you clean the welds inside the header or you just weld so well? Were all the bends same radius? I guess all primaries must be of equal length, right? |
| 15.05.2002 at 14:15 |
|
peep
Moderator |
Headerite ehitamine
Usas on custom made headerid way kallimad kui seeriatoodang.
Minu jaoks tundmatu firmamärk poleks probleem, kui kasutajakogemused positiivsed on, ega kõiki firmasid ei saagi ju teada. Kui kasutajaid ei ole, siis muidugi tasub eemale hoida - tavaliselt on selleks mingi põhjus. |
| 15.05.2002 at 14:17 |
|
LaSa
 Moderator |
 Headerite ehitamine
mul tekkis kohe soov osta peotäis torujuppe ja hakata keevitama  |
| 15.05.2002 at 14:26 |
|
jyrki
|
Headerite ehitamine
I have made two sets; for the first one I bought the pipes from Mopo Sport http://www.moposport.fi/sivut/autoluet/sivu35.html , the prices are still in FIM. They were not perfectly round, about 1.5mm difference but still good enough. Only one radius.
The ones in my Dart were done using a Hedman chevy 2" kit and some extra Hooker bends from Summit, around 200$. we MIG welded them and that seems to be OK, only cleaned the welds outside, but if the pipes are cut correctly and the welder is a good one there will not be much flash inside. The most difficult job is to get the cuts straight; I cut them with a hack saw and always tried not to cut straight, so that the end result was a pretty straight cut! Trying to cut them straight always ended up being everything else than that. Ideally all the primaries should be equal length to get "tuned" headers for certain rpm. I compromised a couple of pipes to make the job easier, most are 30" long but two on the drivers side are somewhat shorter. all except two pipes were done only from two pieces, one out of four and one out of nine! There are many sites in the web where you can count the diameter & length best for your set up. My hint would be not tuning them for peak horsepower rpm, but instead for the peak torque rpm. A typical race header costs about 300$ in USA, while custom headers are usually in excess of 1000$, even a lot. Since mine are of a fenderwell design that go over the framerails and the collectors are in the wheelwells they were pretty easy to build. It took us one long day. Underchassis headers in a tight engine compartment are way more time and nerve consuming. I think that in a typical case you shouldn't pay that much attention to equal lengths; just to get rid of the restricting manifolds and get a free flowing exhaust is a big plus for performance. |
| 15.05.2002 at 14:43 |
Last edited 15.05.2002 at 14:44 by jyrki
|
reo
|
Headerite ehitamine
Pea sama mure siin. Olen lubanud usaldusväärse teoreetilise aluse välja otsida kogu väljalaske konstrueerimiseks aga ajanappuses olen tõtt-öelda alt vedanud inimest. Seni kogutud info on suht katkendlik ja vasturääkiv. Õhus on veel sellised küsimused:
Kas oskab keegi viidata vettpidavatele valemitele headeri toru läbimõõdu kohta?
Millised on X ja H toru eelised teineteise ees?
Mootori võimsuse hindamiseks on igasugu valemid aga kas kuidagi ilma dynota saab ka teada millistel pööretel on võimsuse ja väände tipud?
Lambist ei viitsi sellist asja valmis lahmida, et pärast üle ja ringi teha. |
| 15.05.2002 at 14:43 |
|
jyrki
|
Headerite ehitamine
The peak torque or peak horsepower rpms are always somewhat an estimate; also the headers can have a big effect on where they happen. For example in Jussis car the very long primaries (~46") keep the rpm down, it just won't make power at high rpm. The max hp was at 6000 despite of the pretty hot cam, .69"/.63" lift and 276/283 degrees, that's at .050" lift"! My bigger engine with a pretty similar cam but shorter primaries with the same diameter peaked at 6600.
I haven't had a H-pipe fror years, but last week I made some changes; changed in to smaller 3" front mufflers and built a 3.5" X-pipe from the headers to the mufflers. Don't know yet how it works, but at least the sound is now completely different. |
| 15.05.2002 at 14:54 |
|
BlueStang
|
Headerite ehitamine
Klge, headreite isetegemine vist ei aita performancele eriti kaasa või mis. Seal ju täpselt arvestatud eri torude pikkused ja väänete muutuvad raadiused, et voolamine oleks maksimaalne ja primaartorud ühepikkused. La torude ühinemiskoha koonuse pikkus ja kaldenurk on vajaliku vastusurve tekkimise juures oluline.
Minuteada on shorty-de korval ka täitsa korralikke long-tubesid v6 tarvis olemas - vaatan netist aadressi ja võiks ju koos tellida, äkki tuleb kuskilt otsast soodsam ka.
Ja keraamika minu poolt (please do not kill me now)
____________________________
http://www.mustangandfords.com/news/1305-top-10-svt-cobras/ no more
Dream car for family, who needs to go FAST!
new: Grand-dad of all offroad cars |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:10 |
Last edited 15.05.2002 at 15:13 by BlueStang
|
LaSa
Moderator |
Headerite ehitamine
quote:
BlueStang: Klge, headreite isetegemine vist ei aita performancele eriti kaasa või mis. Seal ju täpselt arvestatud eri torude pikkused ja väänete muutuvad raadiused, et voolamine oleks maksimaalne ja primaartorud ühepikkused. La torude ühinemiskoha koonuse pikkus ja kaldenurk on vajaliku vastusurve tekkimise juures oluline.
imo peaks iga enamv2hem m6istusega meisterdatud torujupp olema parem lahendus kui k6ver ja lyhike stock-kollektor. |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:14 |
|
madis
|
Headerite ehitamine
V6 long headerid on ~250taala. Shortidel pole vist mõtet, kuna stockis on peaaegu analoogne .
Jyrki, sa võiksid kommenteerida short /long headerite plusse /miinusi ! |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:19 |
|
urmas
|
Headerite ehitamine
quote:
LaSa: imo peaks iga enamv2hem m6istusega meisterdatud torujupp olema parem lahendus kui k6ver ja lyhike stock-kollektor.
Ennustan, et kui Sa pole sellist tööd elukutselisena varem teinud, siis mingil hetkel viskad asjad nurka ja ostad poest valmis lahenduse. Kannataks rääkida selliste seppadega, kes teevad roostevabast trepi käsipuid |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:20 |
|
BlueStang
|
Headerite ehitamine
Eile just vaatsin headereid. Ei leidnud kohe üles, aga siin nüüd ilusti olemas. Pildi järgi ehk hea tegija teeks ära ka, kui mõõtsuhted pildi järgi ilusti kätte saaks
Kui tõsiselt proovimiseks läheb, heameelega osalen ka vaatlejana projektis
http://www.rpmoutlet.com/macmus2.htm
esimene pilt alla scrollides kohe long-tubed
Samas aga ikkagi - Laurilt tellides hind ca 4k raha vist ja kohe korralikud olemas
____________________________
http://www.mustangandfords.com/news/1305-top-10-svt-cobras/ no more
Dream car for family, who needs to go FAST!
new: Grand-dad of all offroad cars |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:26 |
Last edited 15.05.2002 at 16:52 by BlueStang
|
Marx
|
Headerite ehitamine
quote:
Kannataks rääkida selliste seppadega, kes teevad roostevabast trepi käsipuid
Tartu kandis ju firma mis keerab roostevabast kängururaudasid jeepidele. |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:28 |
|
partel
|
Headerite ehitamine
Go Jyrki! 
Now I can laugh for the rest of the week  |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:31 |
|
BlueStang
|
Headerite ehitamine
Mis see roostevabade point muidu on, ei tea et kuskil keegi üldse headereid roostevabast toodaks?
____________________________
http://www.mustangandfords.com/news/1305-top-10-svt-cobras/ no more
Dream car for family, who needs to go FAST!
new: Grand-dad of all offroad cars |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:33 |
|
jyrki
|
Headerite ehitamine
advantages of the shorties; They flow better than manifolds, they are easy to install and they have a good ground clearance. I've got some dynotests at home using shorties against full length unequal length headers, and at least in that combo the full lengths beat the shorties by a good margin. |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:42 |
|
jyrki
|
Headerite ehitamine
Stainless is hard to weld, hard to bend and hard to cut plus the materiali is expensive. That would make the price very high compared to ones out of regular pipe. I have had one set that was made out of stainless, and wasn't too happy with them. I believe that the stainless amterial does not absorb boice as well as regular steel and the exhaust noice was way louder with stainless exhaust than with one made out of regular pipe. |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:50 |
|
jaanus
|
Headerite ehitamine
quote:
madis: V6 long headerid on ~250taala.
od, kust sa sellised leidsid?
|
| 15.05.2002 at 15:54 |
|
madis
|
Headerite ehitamine
otsi "headers for ford 3.8" ja leiad 100 kohta |
| 15.05.2002 at 15:56 |
|
jaanus
|
Headerite ehitamine
Aijah, sry. Ise loll. Tegelt on asi selles, et kõik 3.8 headerid ei mahu TBirdile alla. Unustasin juba ise ära 
Tegelt oleks muidugi hea, kui mõni teist omale headerid ära telliks, siis saaks proovida, kas mulle ka mahuvad  |
| 15.05.2002 at 16:10 |
|
urmas
|
Headerite ehitamine
Roostevabast headerid (home made)
enne:
pärast:
Ma küsisin selle taadi (Esa Hernesharju) käest, et milleks selline puskariaparaat on ehitatud? Ta vastas, et tuleb ennast väljalaskegaasiks mõelda ja siis üritada leida sobivat väljapääsu läbi torude. Nii need lahendused sünnivadki |
| 15.05.2002 at 16:14 |
|
reo
|
Headerite ehitamine
Thanks Jyrki,quote:
I haven't had a H-pipe fror years...
And reason was? Why exactly you choose X-pipe now?
quote:
For example in Jussis car the very long primaries (~46") keep the rpm down, it just won't make power at high rpm.
I am always thought that I need to build headers & exhaust to correspond to engine datas. My bad, just now I realised that on some cases could be even better to act contrarywise.
PS Kas teab keegi, on Eestis saadaval ajakiri Super Rod? Selle märtsinumbris on artikkel "Kit Building A Dual Exhaust.", olevat väga põhjaliku teemakäsitlusega.
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| 15.05.2002 at 16:25 |
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